Hating the Sin[ner], Loving the Sinner

UPDATED October 25, 2007 [see the end]

ok. yall can be the judge of this.

here is an email exchange between me and this fellow. he’s starting to bug me, and for good reason. i’ve taken the nested replies and reversed the order here so you can read for yourself in order how it has flowed and where it changed. if i’m in the wrong, dear readers, i know you’ll let me know. 🙂

first i get this email [in pink] from a website i’ve signed up at. it’s not spam. then i reply to the email and i get a reply and back and forth for a bit.

Christian Singles Newsletter vol.:2007-5
Dear Friends:

Well hello and welcome to the Christian Dating Service PLUS! September 2007 singles newsletter!

Times sure flies by! Can you believe that Fall is upon us? I don’t know about you, but I absolutely love this time of year. In my neck of the woods we have leaves turning beautiful shades of orange, yellow and red, cool, starlit evenings and the signs of Harvest all around us in the form of pumpkins, corn, cranberries and other choice crops.

Ever notice how Harvest Time always happens at just the right time? It’s a great sign of God’s faithfulness and love for us, in providing exactly what we need to survive and prosper.

I know many reading this may be wondering when their “harvest” regarding that special Christian dating relationship may happen. I personally know how difficult it is in times like these, but as you wait on the Lord for that special someone, pray over these verses:

~If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?~ Romans 8:31,32


Did you know that we have a team of folks praying for you all collectively? But if you have personal
prayer request or want to get in touch with us for some other reason, just let us know anytime 24/7, and we will get back to you promptly. You can also leave your comments on our site.
Hey, do you know that God desires a relationship with you? If you’re not sure about His love and great plan for you life, please be sure to check this out!
Hope you enjoy our Christian Singles Newsletter…Please remember me in your prayers…
Cheers and Blessings!
David
Romans 15:13
Christian Singles Newsletter Table of Contents:
>>> A Short Announcement
>>> Favorite Singles Cartoon of Month
>>> Christian Dating and Romance Tip
>>> Relationship Quote of the Month
>>> Most Popular Article of Month
>>> A Featured Christian Podcast of the Month from a Church geared toward Singles
>>> Our Favorite Love Song Lyrics of the Month
Note: We need YOU! Christian Dating Service PLUS! is successful because of the Lord and you. We get most of our stuff from you, so if you have a dating tip, a singles related podcast or article, idea topics for our upcoming Forum, a love poem, survey questions or love song lyrics that you’d like to share with tens of thousands of other Christian singles, send it on out. We’ll be happy to use it, and acknowledge you by linking back to you. I figure if we all help each other, we’ll all be blessed in the process. Sounds good?

>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Short Announcements-
1) As noted in our previous newsletter, a we are getting ready to put up a forum where Christian singles can talk directly with each other on a variety of topics that interests them. If you are interested in helping out, or have any idea about this, please get in touch with us. We get hundreds of singles each month wishing to reach out directly with others, and we see this as a great way to do it.
2) In our last newsletter I wrote that our SINGLES SURVEY results on dating and church attendance would be released on our site on 9/9/07! However, being in the hospital four times in the last few weeks has set us back a week or two. I apologize, and will be releasing results on our site with cool charts shortly. Here are some interesting finding so far:
a) Both single men and single women who avoid church (attend less than 1x per month) gave the top reason for singles doing so is because church is more structured toward married folks. Do you agree or disagree?
b) Never married single gals worry most about money/bills and then their dating life; Never married single guys worry most about dating relationships followed by their careers. What do you make of that?
Feel free to write an article on either one of the survey findings
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Favorite Singles Cartoon of the Month
Just your typical Christian singles group….
Read here about other Christian singles groups “benefits” you may want to consider.
Special thanks to Jeff Larson at Back Pew Greeting Cards.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Christian Dating and Romance Tips-
Top 7 Reasons You May Want to Try Online Christian Dating…

>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Relationship Quote of the Month-
~Love is the irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired.~Mark Twain
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>Most Popular Article of Month-
Inquiring minds want to Know Why Good Christian Girls Date Bad Guys…

>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>Featured Christian Podcast of the Month from a Church geared toward Singles
Many singles are worried about money, bills and debt….Cheer up, help is on the way:
By the way…do you have an audio or video podcast or MP3 message regarding the Christian single life you would like broadcasted to tens of thousands of singles each month worldwide? Just let us know, and we’ll be glad to help out!
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Our Favorite Love Song Lyrics of the Month
Have You Ever Been In Love? Celine Dion
Have you ever been in love
You could touch the moonlight
When your heart is shooting stars
You’re holding heaven in your arms
Have you ever been in love?
Have you ever walked on air, ever
Felt like you were dreamin’
When you never thought it could
But it really feels that good
Have you ever been in love?
Have you ever been in love
You could touch the moonlight
When your heart is shooting stars
You’re holding heaven in your arms
Have you ever been in love?
The time I spent waiting for something
That was heaven sent
When you find it don’t let go
I know…
Have you ever said a prayer
And found that it was answered
All my hope has been restored
I ain’t looking anymore
Have you ever been…
Some place that you ain’t leavin’
Somewhere you gonna stay
When you finally found the meanin’
Have you ever felt this way?
The time I spent waiting for something
That was heaven sent
When you find it don’t let go
I know…
Have you ever been in love?
You could touch the moonlight
You can even reach the stars
Doesn’t matter near or far
Have you ever been in love?
Have you ever been in love?
So in love


>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note: You have received this newsletter because you either signed up for it, or were referred by a friend.
To stop receiving this please just
let us know.
© Christian Dating Service PLUS! 2007

holly holly wrote:
thanks for this. nice to get the updates.

tho i can do without celine dion lyrics. i’m so over her. 🙂

in touch,
holly
Sex Tips for Christian Girls
http://stcg.blogspot.com

david wrote:

Dear Holly:
You’re a funny chick. Also, although I don’t agree with your views on your blog, you are a very compelling writer. Are you really from Vancouver, I have a cousin, and she’s a pastor there. So tell me what you’re really like?
David

holly holly wrote:
thanks for the compliments on my humour and writing. both have come a long way in the last half decade.

i consider vancouver my hometown. i grew up 5 hours from there [not going back there] and always gravitate home to vancouver when not at school. i did do a year at ubc there early on. it had its ups and downs, but the city seeped into my heart.

i also attended several different kinds of churches while i was there. which denomination is she a pastor in?

what am i really like? well, i believe in truth. i’ve lived too much of my life with people lying around me so i live a hard core version of truth now. thus my blog. it’s not fiction or fantasy [except for some of the fantasies in there]. it’s me. what am i really like? i think my blog expresses that. that’s what blogs are supposed to do.

and i don’t know you or anything or how old you are, so i don’t know if this would be relevant or out of place, but “chick” is a sexist, demeaning and infantilizing term when applied to a woman. i use it with some of my friends and vice versa. but it isn’t used with strangers. nigger is used by some of my black friends. i don’t use it though, for the same reason. and if you didn’t mean to be demeaning, then i take no offense, but it’s something you should watch out for.

in touch,
holly

david wrote:
what a shame, Holly! for a minute there I thought you were refreshing and interesting and truly liberal in the best sense. Now it appears you are just another politically correct person (chick, babe, slut, hey you fill in the blanks) who lets the speech of others affect them. is it insecurity that effects people in this way? Would you be offended if I told you to kiss my white ass? poor little girl. I’m sure your choice of words in your blog offends people. but do you care? hell no. So grow up Ok? and stop being such a hypocritical weasel. I want you to know that I still love you, so please keep in touch.

holly holly wrote:
just another politically correct person? wow. how can it be so easy to dismiss and minimize me for something honest i say. do you say negro or coloured person to talk about blacks or african americans? would someone be “just another” politically correct black person if they asked you to not refer to them as coloured?

do you refer to single women as miss or ms.? if you say miss, are you offended when people ask you not to? do you say ms.? then my point is made. do you say ms. grudgingly? then you may never GET my point.

so am i insecure or weak if someone else’s speech affects me? if you were to call black people niggers would you expect them to not be offended? wow.

i believe i am strong enough to let someone know when they offend me. if it is weak to be offended, then you may be betraying a white, judeo-christian demographically dominant insensitivity. or maybe that is as out of line, stereotypical and offensive of me as you are continuing to be with me.

and now i’m wondering how you would define a “liberal in the best sense”…what kind of personality traits would make your “best” liberal? i’m not sure i’d WANT to exhibit any of those traits.

i don’t care if your ass is white or not. i’m not offended by you expressing the anger towards me that makes you want me to kiss your ass. i can take that. i can handle that. it’s just a “no thanks” from me.

why do you think i don’t care that people are offended by my blog? how could you possibly know this? i value a greater good that i’m pursuing than just avoiding offending people. if the “language” of my blog were completely unoffensive [which couldn’t happen based on what i write about], then the content would offend people. when people send me emails about what’s wrong with me and my blog [and tina…], they don’t complain about language. they don’t like the content. i respect their feelings. i’ve BEEN where they are. i’ve believed those things. i write my blog to offer girls a sense of another way. if they change, great. if they don’t, fine. everyone chooses their life choices.

i’m only hypocritical in your eyes because you’ve decided you know the answer to the question you ask about me. that’s condescending and presumptuous.

and i’ll tell you something. of all the hate/disagreement email i’ve received from my blog, the ones i respect are from christians who demonstrate consistency in their own responses to my blog. people who act with some sense of respect that i’m a different person from them. people who don’t demonstrate condescension to me while claiming they love me. people who do not slide into demeaning personal attacks. people who are apparently upstanding enough that if they were to run a christian dating website that they’d be able to not tell me to kiss their ass, tell me to grow up, presume they know me enough to speak for me then call me hypocritical and a weasel, then say at the end what has become the bumpersticker of christian fundamentalist hypocrisy: i still love you. after you’ve been this rude to me. hate the sin, love the sinner. does that work with hate the sin [and offend the sinner] and love the sinner? doesn’t wash with me. it never has and you’ve perpetuated why it doesn’t.

i tell you, if i treated people’s complaints about my blog with the dismissiveness as you have treated me when i told you one little thing about how millions of women feel about the word “chick” i think you may have far more problems playing nicely with others than you might think i have.

this is why when i wrote the chick thing i was humble enough to say a few things:

“and i don’t know you or anything or how old you are, so i don’t know if this would be relevant or out of place,”

“and if you didn’t mean to be demeaning, then i take no offense, but it’s something you should watch out for.”

i write these things because i KNOW that i barely know you and email is often tough to get a true sense of a person’s communication style. those were disclaimers that apparently didn’t work. and now i’m thinking it wasn’t worth the effort.

so you still love me and you want me to please keep in touch? my question of you is why? i am not a kind of person who will roll over when people answer questions for me, call me a weasel, tell me to kiss their ass and grow up. i had exactly enough of that kind of controlling behaviour in the church i grew up in. if you wish to try that nonsense on me now any further, you’ll get me assertively telling you to stick your condescension back in whatever twisted interpretation of the bible you MAY feel justifies your way of communicating with virtual perfect strangers.

wow. you are sure a piece of work. in the end, i stand by my words. i wonder if the words you just sent to me you would feel comfortable posting on your own godly christian singles website. in fact, i dare you to post them there. if you are the kind of person with the “integrity” to send these words to me in a private email, are you also the kind of person who is willing to post them on your site?

please reply to this one, because i need to know whether or not to post all of this on MY website. i stand by my words. do you?

in touch,
holly

david butler wrote:

Dear Holly:
Now that’s what I’m looking for! Some spunk and passion! Holly I believe in a free exchange of ideas.I just speak my mind, and if others are offended, well I’m sorry. It’s just not my heart to hurt people. My whole point in my last discourse with you is that people are too sensitive nowadays, and should not be offended by the words of others. You called me a Fundamentalist. I can handle it. (By the way, I’m not a Fundy). Fundamentalists hate my site because I dare talk about Taboo subjects like masturbation. And I am not dismissing or minimizing you. Just stop judging folks by their words. Words mean nothing. It’s actions that count. If you’ve seen hypocrisy in other Christians before, and been hurt by them, you’ve probably had someone say one thing, yet do another. I do love you, and if we were speaking in person, you would see that I am just a REAL and warm and passionate person who love Jesus, but just says it like it is. Of course you can put this on your site, who cares?
Your friend,
david

holly holly wrote:

well now you’ve got me confused enough to end this.

it’s just not your heart to hurt people, yet you speak your mind and if others are offended you’re sorry. that’s a little inconsistent.

people are too sensitive, so you bait me. ok. i see. that says a lot about you.

you don’t believe people should be offended by others’ words. you still haven’t answered my question about whether you call black people niggers. i assume you don’t. if you don’t you’re lying about people shouldn’t be offended by others’ words. if you do call black people niggers, you are disgusting. either way, this makes you look at best inconsistent, at worst sociopathic.

your love for me is extraordinarily uncomfortable with your ease at abusing me, then saying you don’t wish to offend. this is classic mind-fuck. you are a sick person.

words do not mean nothing. if you truly believe they don’t, you should start saying nigger regularly and see what nothing means. if you think words OUGHT to mean nothing, you haven’t experienced systemic discrimination or abuse as many minorities have. i pity your privilege.

you are a sad, inconsistent individual with a godly sounding website and a heart of manipulation and self-centredness.

and you sign it “your friend”. this shows how clearly deluded you are. if you believe i can see you as a friend because you say you love me i truly weep for your sense of reality.

do not contact me again.

no longer in touch,
holly

And the final nail in this fuck’s coffin: he’s been full of lies. It’s like that old cartoon that shows two dogs, one on a computer, saying to the other “On the internet noone knows you’re a dog.” And there’s always a chance that he isn’t the brother, but the fellow himself trying to distance himself from his pig-dogness. Either way, he re-affirms my sense of the depravity of people. I’m just glad that real people in my life are honest…and many online too, which is nice. But this guy’s a prick:

david butler wrote:

Holly
This is the classic attack of a liberal who is not really liberal: Instead of attacking the issue..you attack the person…..By the way, I don’t run this web site, nor do I write for it or believe in it. My brother David does….He needed used MY email address (see above) write his stupid ass newsletter to all you people because his server broke down one day….Me…I was just having fun with all you sad idiots who have no better time than to read his shit….so gullible…
By the way, if you’re ever in seattle, drop by and have a drink with me at college avenue southwest. You obviously need a man(23) in your life.
Drew
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Sex Tip #8: Go to Church Braless

I went to worship service Sunday night. The weather was fine so the day was in the sun.

Holly came with me. She hasn’t been here for years. It was a good service. Lots of worship. Lots of arms waving in the air. Lots of singing. It felt good.

The day was fun, with Holly and a quick drink at tea time at Bimini with Barry. Bad red wine. How is that possible, Bimini, say it isn’t really so. But it was.

But during our day, Holly and I shopped. We don’t like to shop. It’s stressful, but the shopping was a delightful distraction from things amongst us.

And we hit one place on the Drive with some fantastic fabrics and clothes. There was an amazing Guatemalan design. If you know anything from there, you know what I mean. It was a light white cotton strapless halter with lace inset and a “Guatemalan” trim on the top elastic.

Having perfect though small breasts, the halter fit snugly and comfortably. In trying it on, I abandoned my bra. A nice bra, red. It spent the rest of the day in my sack. Then it was texting Barry on the way to Bimini and donairs for dinner.

Yawn. Ok I’m getting to it.

I write this because I didn’t intend to go to worship braless. Truly. But I don’t apologize.

I had a bra, but it so didn’t go with the top. And for the afternoon, even with the subpar red wine, I enjoyed people looking at my top, and my breasts beneath. You couldn’t really “see” anything, but you could make them out well. But that was Bimini when everyone looks at you as if they’re rubbing your ass. Which is fine.

But drinking and eating too late meant it was too tight to whip back home to get a strapless bra and I said ok. Let’s go to church. It’ll be fine.

Sunday night worship on a sunny summer day is no big deal. Not a huge turnout. The church ladies that Holly dreads so much don’t go because overhead projector hymns don’t do it for them.

And the air conditioner is not so great anyway, so THAT problem wasn’t a big worry.

And I like my breasts. As does Barry. And Holly. And Vicky and John. And my husband did too. And others, but I don’t write about them here. 🙂

So we go to church and Holly has a good time, though she takes a while to relax. Understandable after some of the weirdness here for her.

And there’s the singing and the quiet prayer and the talking prayers and such. A moving evening.

And I caught no one gawking at my breasts. Though a few times I found a few eyes looking around for a little too long. And I felt pretty and desirable and not like a whore, even though some Sunday morning women would look at me like I was.

But it is summer, so the argument goes even on days where it’s grimy out. And it was a warm night and we were out and God welcomed me into his presence regardless of whether I was wearing a bra.

And I’m not dating any of the guys or looking to. I’m fine single and doing what I do.

And Christian girls who feel like not wearing a bra should not feel horrified by it. And I know that some girls have less ease at this option than me. I respect that and I don’t want to preach. But my lesson from Sunday night is that you should think hard about going braless to church once or twice.

In part, it says to God that you are the fullness of who you are. God loves all of each of us, even our bodies as a part of our being. And He knows us anyway. So since God knew I spent the afternoon without a bra and I honoured him in my life all day, it was no different in the evening.

So sex tip #8 is to think about wearing no bra to church. And even if you don’t do it, thinking about it will bring you closer to yourself and to God.

In dreams,
Tina

Adultery R Us

Ok, so adultery is a sin. I get it. The ten commandments are “carved in stone” and all that, but we need to get over a few things.

One. People’s lives are flux. Marriages come and go. We can pretend this is not happening but that just makes us blind and stupid. Good things are people who need to split, to split.

That said, it’s time for a confession. I slept with a married man once. OK, three times, but it was one affair. This all comes up cuz a bud on myspace filled out a survey. one of the questions was about what she’d do if a married guy approached her. she said she’d tell him to buzz off, etc.

That’s cool. To each their own, eh.

So contextually, all adultery is wrong? It’s not perfect, i’ll grant that. but i’ll also say in a context it can be healthy. let me explain.

So i knew this guy a few years ago. Me=early twenties, him late twenties. He was already married like 5 or 6 years. His wife was no good. Well, that’s easy for me to say. But she wasn’t. I like sarcasm, but when it’s mixed with condescension and judgement, it’s just ugly.

She was one of the church ladies at one mostly lame church i attended. and she wasn’t 62 years old and bitter, she was the new generation of church lady bitches for whom everyone has something flawed about them. The salt stain on the bottom of my skirt was one day that winter an unfortunate thing i let happen on the way to church, she said. i could not believe she said that out loud. I’m like, what is her concern, that i’ve ruined my skirt? Dishonoured Jesus? Offended the clean people? i couldn’t get it. in the end, i just figured her for a bitch. she stood around after church eyeing everyone, waiting to see if something needs fixing. and when she helped out, it wasn’t cuz you needed it, but because she needed to fix you. wow. i’m still angry about her.

But the funny thing is that i didn’t know she was Phil’s wife. “Phil” was in a christian club at UBC with me, which is where i saw him most compared to only sometimes at this church. he was one of the less hyper-evangelical ones in the club at UBC. he was more relaxed. he was also a bit of a flirt. and that was good. i had come out of my uptight virgin place. i still hadn’t gotten into my bi-is-so-much-fun phase and i was freshly single after leaving a mostly loser guy. this was the guy who felt it would be a good sign of my love for him to let him fuck me up against the window of my dorm room. not that there’s anything wrong with that, except for how that worked in our dynamic. i just checked the rest of my blog. i never wrote about him. there’s something else for the list.

anyway, phil was a flirt and i liked him. his wife wasn’t into the christian club. she didn’t go to school. she was a dental assistant. she wasn’t “gifted” in evangelism she said. that was so true. she was gifted in offending people. but as i said i didn’t know she was his wife.

anyway, the Ridge bowling lanes in Vancouver are lotsa fun. there’s a quiet side there with a just a few lanes that can be rented out nicely by a big enough but small group. our club went there on and off. and one night after the bowling, Phil and I just kept talking. We ended up at Benny’s bagels chatting til midnight or so and in that time, he had pretty much described who he is and why his wife is not good for him and vice versa. and i totally believed him. and not just cuz i thought he was cute. and i’ve never had cause to disagree with my judgement that night.

so we went back to my dorm room and fucked. it was really nice. and very juicy, the good kind. and he went home and met me again after church the next day while his wife and her gaggle of grim gals went for lunch. we fucked some more and then the next sunday too.

and all the time, i was like, you are a great guy, why is your life so fucked up that you are sneaking around with me. and i told him this. and i said, i’m glad to fuck him to get him to see what kind of life he’s in and what kind of life he should consider: the not being married kind. and not so he could be with me, because he was so damaged, but some people need to be PUSHED to make a decision. and he totally put me into his life so that i could push him. that’s what i thought anyway. and i think i was right.

and as the school year was ending and i had drifted out of that club, i ran into him at the student union building. he still had a wedding ring and i pointed that out. he said he and his wife went to Keats Camp for a marriage encounter thing a few weeks after our affair. he didn’t say if he told her about me and i didn’t ask. and one off-hand remark about her at the end of our conversation about something she said at the church made me put 2+2=why the fuck did he ever marry her: it was something about jesus being a kind of orange blossom. she said it one sunday night when she was the MC hosting a night welcoming a missionary to the church. i was there. i heard it. i knew THAT ghoulish woman. and it turns out that when he said something like “that night when my wife was talking about jesus as the orange blossom…” it also occured to me that he thought that i had known all along who his wife was. i wish i did. i would have put even more effort into fucking him.

at any rate. that was him. sounds like he tried to get his marriage to work. i hope he eventually told her about his affair. and if not fine. i did find out the next year through the hushed scandal whispers of some girls from the UBC club i bumped into that he had gotten a divorce. they said it in the context of how it hampered his evangelical credibility. i fucking bet it did. 🙂

so i’m glad at least he got out of that deal.

so. adultery. not that i think it’s all that awesome all the time. but it can certainly be the kind of flick to the head that people need to inspire them to look honestly at themselves and say wtf.

so he said wft. and i think i had a good part of that. yay me. and in the end if you are still 100% against adultery, i’d just like to say that there is black and white and grey and all the other colours of the rainbow. if you still think there is just black and white, i wanna say, why do you own a colour tv. get a grip.

in touch,
holly